New Wilmington Mission Conference

hey everybody, use this forum to voice any questions or concerns you have.  If you want you can leave your name - or if you want to be a little anonymous, you can do that to.  There will be several members of the high school staff checking this forum frequently to answer your questions.  Talk to you soon.

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'Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind'

Ok, well during our devotions we had a debat about this, but can people who are of another religion, other than christanity, go to heaven?, and also where do babys go when they die? cz we had a huge debat about that.

and could maybe 2 counselors please, reply to this, cz i would like to see what 2 different people thought

Thanks alot

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"Who can say if I've been changed for the better, i do believe i have been changed for the better
but because i knew you
because i knew you
i have been changed for good"

Ok, well during our devotions we had a debat about this, but can people who are of another religion, other than christanity, go to heaven?, and also where do babys go when they die? cz we had a huge debat about that.

and could maybe 2 counselors please, reply to this, cz i would like to see what 2 different people thought

Thanks alot

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"Who can say if I've been changed for the better, i do believe i have been changed for the better
but because i knew you
because i knew you
i have been changed for good"

Eric,

That is an awesome question, with a frustratingly inconclusive answer.

The answer really has two parts:

1.   The Bible indicates in several places that the Kingdom of Heaven is reserved for those who believe and trust in the promise of Jesus Christ, and who actively accept that promise.  So that would make it seem that Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven, and as Christianity is the only faith that truly views Jesus as the Christ, that's the only way in.  He is present in other faiths, such as Islam and Hinduism, but not as the Messiah and Son of God that we as Christians believe him to be.

2.   On the other hand, there are multiple Biblical references to salvation being "through Jesus Christ."  One can interpret this (and many have) to indicate that ALL are saved through Jesus, regardless of who they are.  Certainly, that would make sense, from a certain perspective, as God loves us all and WANTS us all there.  So the matter of salvation comes down more to the question of whose chioce it is:  Is it God's choice, or ours?

I think that the more that you read the Bible, the more evidence that you are going to find that it is ultimately up to us.  Now, we cannot earn our way in or do anything that is worthy of salvation, that is why we need Christ, but it is still up to us to make that choice to ACCEPT the offer of salvation through Christ.  Accepting that offer is what makes us Christians, and what leads us to live out a Christian lifestyle.  We are saying that we give our lives to Christ, that we trust that His way is better than our way.

But it still requires us to choose it.

Think of the prodigal son parable.  It is the father who saves the son, who never stops loving the son, and who ultimately gives the son everything that he needs, but it is the son who has to choose to accept that help, to humble himself and come before the father and accept that help.  As Jesus says, "such is the Kingdom of Heaven."

Now does this mean that everyone that isn't a Christian isn't going to heaven?  That's hard to deal with.  It does mean that we need Jesus to save us all, and it seems to mean that we need to accept that salvation ourselves.  Perhaps we can't really know until we get there.  At the very least we can be sure that we can't go wrong with Jesus, and it gives all the more urgency for mission work of all types.  But if I get to heaven and there are Muslims and Buddhists there, it won't bother me at all.  Heck, if Hitler's there, I'll be fine with it, because if I see Hitler in heaven that means that I made it to heaven, too, and I know that I am no more deserving of salvation than anyone else.

So that's what I perceive to be kind of an answer.  Hopefully that helps a bit.  If it need more clearing up, I'll try to add more later.  Read the third chapter of the Gospel of John, in as many different translations as you can.  That's a pretty in your face answer to this very question.

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Hey Jesus, you're so fine. You're so fine you blow my mind.

Eric,

Tyler really did a great job of answering your question, but I thought since you asked I would give my thoughts as well. 

Tyler really did cover it all as far as getting to heaven, even though it makes us uncomfortable at times, I think it is clear that accepting Jesus is the key. 

Where this gets tough or not so clear is when it comes to people that never had the chance to accept Jesus.  This could be babies or children that are not yet able to understand about faith and the like or it could be people that have never heard about Jesus.

 

Before I get to the other things, it is important to know that no where in the Bible does it say anything about Baptism being essential for salvation.  We do not believe that you have to be Baptized to get into Heaven. 

There is a lot to say about this, so I will try to be brief and I can answer anything that you don't understand or I have said in a confusing way.  The first thing to think about is that God is not fair - God is more than fair, goes out of His way to be there for us and give us every opportunity to have a relationship with Him.  In Romans 6:23 it says 'the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' s

Check out the Romans 5.  It is talking about how sin got into the world and it says, in verse 13 it says 'for before the law was given, sin was in the world.  But sin is not taken into account when there is no law'.  Taken by itself you could take that to mean that there may be different rules for those that don't know about Jesus or don't understand.  That may be true, but the rest of the chapter makes clear that everyone is guilty of sin, even if they have not heard the 'law' or the gospel story. 

I don't know the answer to what happens to those that have never heard about Jesus, but I have to believe that God with deal with them the way God has dealt with us, in a way that is so unfair in our favor that we are amazed. 

The one thing that we can know for sure is that the one sure way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ, and as such we should all work towards the goal of the whole world hearing the Good News of faith in Jesus Christ.

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'Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind'

Well,

You know I have to weigh in on this discussion. I will try not to say too much because a lot has already been said. i will only add that when it comes to heaven and salvation and "judgement" day and all that there are a few interesting verses. The one that really blows my mind is Matthew 25:31-46. Before you read it I have a few things for you to notice. First of all, this is Jesus talking and he clearly has an idea of what judgement day might look like. Also, it is not a parable because he does not use the key phrase, "It is like" as he does in the verses earlier. Jesus goes on to say that the sheep will go to the right and teh goats to the left. He also clarifies who are the sheep and who are the goats. Notice how he distinguishes the two. Not neccesarily based on what we believe, but what we do and who we do it to or for. Now the difference is that what we do does tend to be based in what we believe. Since we believe in gravity we will freely walk and jump and know that we will come down. If we truly believe in Jesus and what he sadi we will do what he told us to do and that is love God and love our neighbors.  I have already written too much and gotten really confusing. I will clarify later if any more questions arise.

Rob

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Rob Bradford

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery"

thanks that helped clear things up alot, and hopefully others will see your answers who have to same question.

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"Who can say if I've been changed for the better, i do believe i have been changed for the better
but because i knew you
because i knew you
i have been changed for good"

Also, check out a podcast by a christian apologist, ravi zacharias

The uniqueness of Christ in World Religions

http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&v=detail&id=377

Part 2
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&v=detail&id=382

David

I have a question about the theory that some came up with not too long ago that said that judas did not betray Jesus but instead was told by Jesus that he had to turn him in and have him killed in order to make the proficy come true. This just doesnt make anysince to me because that would be like telling you best friend to kill you and them actually doing that...i just dont see that happening because of the love between the two people...even if it was to prove something that was written would come true...i guess i just want to know some other people's oppinions on this theory.

sarah

Hey Sarah,

 

   Good question. I think it is important to be careful of what you read and hear, and remember to keep the Bible as your number one source of Truth. I know that I can often fall prey to thinking that words of scholars or popular opinion are true, and as a side note, I think I am even more likely to believe that words written by Christian authors are true. I think sometimes we are even guilty of reading Christian books as if they were gospel. My point is, it is so great to listen and explore other ideas, but look with a critical eye. Someone else will surely post here what qualifications a book must have to have made it into the bible, which I can not do, as I am not a biblical scholar. However, I know that books were scrutinized for accuracy before they were included, and there are reasons that other books were not included.

No, I do not believe that Jesus told Judas to kill him, but do I believe it must have happened as part of God's plan? Yes...and no. That is where it becomes tricky. I believe Judas was acting out of his own will, but God knew that he would betray Jesus and God's hand was in it all. Jesus had to die to take on our sins and to give us Grace. But did the betrayal have to happen? This goes into the confusion of free will vs. predestination. I think that in truth there is no "vs." It is not one or the other. I don't think Judas betrayed Jesus to kill him just so what was written would come true...what was written became true because God knew it would. I believe that God exists outside of time, so though we have free will, he sees past, present and future as existing as one...he knows what we will do because it essentially is already happening...

 

*Note-- just as you should not believe the writings/theories of others as truth, please do not accept my thoughts as truth...I am completely fallible, and my only reason for responding is that I was just a counselor. I love to contribute my thoughts, but I do not attend seminary, and I can never claim to know the workings/reasonings of God. Read your Bible, check out the history, and figure out your own theories! And listen to the ideas of others who reply who know a lot more than me!*

Works,

Caitlin's where it's at.

I have a perspective on it that is perhaps not what you are asking, but an interesting way to look at it:

Judas did not betray Jesus because he was mad at him, but instead because he loved him.  Likewise, Judas was one of the closest disciples to Jesus.  Here's why...

The theory, which matches up with Biblical representation of the whole thing (not directly confirmed, but a reasonable assumption).  Judas very well could have been turning Jesus over to the Pharisees to force him into action.  He knows that JC has all of this awesome power, and was THE Messiah.  The OT/Jewish perception of who the messiah was going to be was a conquering warrior who would lead God's people on to victory, and Judas might likely have had this impression.

Judas begins to realize that JC has all of this power, but he's not going to use it yet.  So he turns Jesus over to the authorities to force him into a situation where he will HAVE to use his power.  Think of it like a karate movie, where the honorable yet peaceful karate master is pushed into a situation where he must break down and kick some keister.  Perhaps this is what Judas thought Jesus would have to do when pushed into a corner.  Imagine the horror when Judas realizes that Jesus, his best friend, with all of this power, is not going to use it.  It enough to drive one to hang himself.

On the second part of the point, Judas being one of the closest disciples, think of two points.  One, he was the one who was in charge of handling all of the the group's money, a duty that's pretty important, and one that they wouldn't just give to anyone, but someone who Jesus throrougly trusted.  Second, the Pharisees use Judas as a means of betraying Jesus.  They would likely want to go to one of his closest followers.  Granted it is Judas who comes to them, but the still would be see they're chances of success higher with a disciple who was closer to Jesus, rather than say Thomas, who was too wishy washy.

Anyway, the whole point is not that Judas didn't betray JC.  He definately did.  Rather the idea is that Judas is likely not the evil villian that we portray him as, that his betrayal was out of a love and frustration with Jesus rather than out of anger and hatred.  His betrayal is still horrible, but easier to understand in a way.

They kind of use this idea in Jesus Christ Superstar, but it is a reasonable interpretation of the actual text as well.

A whole other wrench in the system is the question as to whether Judas is actually betraying Jesus, since Jesus had always known he was going to be crucified, and that was always part of the plan.  To suggest that Judas "betrayed" Jesus is to suggest that he did something to ruin JC's plan, when in reality, Judas's action works toward the fulfillment of Jesus's plan.  That's a whole other can of worms, though.

That's a great question, Works.

Hopefully some of that made sense.  Nothing was too solid, but just a different perspective on Judas.

boom,
Tyler

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Hey Jesus, you're so fine. You're so fine you blow my mind.

Another quick note is to realize that Judas did kill himself when he realized what he had done. If he truly hated or was angry with Jesus he would have been happy with his decision. The fact that he resonded by killing himslef proves that he realized he had messed up and that maybe his plan to force Jesus into action did not really work.

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Rob Bradford

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery"

thanks for commenting back...it was good to hear what you each thought about the subject and its good to hear the different opinions on why it happened the way it did...most of what you all said makes sence and helps me too realize more of maybe how and why Judas acted and did the things he did. thanks again for the answers...i will definetly come back here with other questions...