New Wilmington Mission Conference

This has been a big debate between some of my friends and me about whether homosexuals are able to go to heaven.  The Presbyterian church doesn't support and doesn't condemn the issue, but they are indifferent and that has lead to people formulating their own opinions on what they think is right in the eyes of God.  There are many Bible verses that support both sides of the argument and contradict each other and I wanted to know what people thought.  Counselors, if you would give as explanitory responses as possible, please.

I would like to know where in the bible it supports this issue?

I appreciate your question and the thoughtfullness with which you ask it. As you read this I am sure you will think it is a cop-out and that I am not really answering the question for you. But I still must answer it this way. I feel very strongly that the question you ask is the wrong question. Honestly, I have no idea if homosexuals will be in heaven. I have an opinion, but I do not know for sure who will be and wont be in heaven. I am actually very happy I do not have to be the one to decide who goes to heaven and who does not. The real question should be "How do we treat people who are possibly different than us?" Or how should we treat people in general. I believe that all people are Children of God and deserve to be loved, treated kindly and treated fairly. 

If you feel this is not a good enough answer, I will leave you wotyh my personal opinion. But you must realize you are hearing MY opinion. I believe that homosexuals are definitely able to go to heaven just as anyone else is able to go to heaven.

 Please feel free to continue this topic and to continue the discussion.

 Rob Bradford

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Rob Bradford

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery"

Here's my best attempt at a higher level overview of how I understand the issue since this post seems popular.  I hope others will be along to add from their knowledge, especially with specific Biblical citations.

I believe homosexuals can go to heaven. Homosexuality is a sin just like lust, lying or murder.  Sex outside of marriage is sinful and marriage is for a man and a woman.  For these reasons, homosexual sex is a sin, separates us from God and makes us worthy of being condemned (like any other sin).  But that's not how the story ends . . .

Fortunately, we are all blessed with God's grace and forgiveness which none of us deserve through Christ's death on the cross.  It is that grace alone that enables us to be reconciled with God and enter heaven.  God's grace is offered freely and equally to each one of us, homosexuals, coveter, liars and murderers.

The most challenging aspect of homosexuality for Christians is that we are also called to become more like Christ.  We are called to live lives striving to be less sinful and to be sanctified (made more like Jesus by the Holy Spirit).  Others can probably explain this process better than I, but the challenge with homosexuality here is that this asks homosexuals to abstain from sex.

In our society, it is easy to ask people to abstain from murder and not too difficult to ask for honesty, but our society actively encourages us to lust and homosexuality has become a much more difficult topic to broach.  Americans value individuality and asking people not to do what they want to is a very touchy subject, but that is exactly what Christ calls each one of us sinners to do.

I can't speak for the denomination, but you may be referring to the somewhat recent struggles relative to the ordination of sexually active homosexuals.  I'll leave that topic for those more aware of it than me.

I want to repeat that I believe homosexuals can and do go to heaven.  I'm grateful for that truth.  Otherwise, my multitude of sins would stand between me and my Lord in heaven as well.

Andrew 

the thing is, where does it not?

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Forever

I mean, it would just seem so unfair for God not to let homosexuals into heaven just because of something that people can't help.  I would imagine that Christ would understand the pain and hardships that homosexuals are going through and their persistance to try and connect with God.

I don't know, we have our own way of thinking and then there are so many people of different faiths that think gays are already doing to hell with no exceptions.  It is hard to decide which one is correct.

 

God loves the sinner but hates the sin. in much the same way...

 God loves the homosexual but hates the homosexuality.

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Philippians 1:3-11

Hi Rachel,

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Are you looking for the scriptural references?  I am hoping some others who are better equipped than I will provide them, but you can start by looking at 1 Corinthians chapter 6 if that's what you're looking for.  I think it's pretty applicable to this conversation.  If there isn't more feedback by tomorrow night, I'll do more research.

To the last anonymous post,

We are fortunate that Christ's sacrifice on the cross allows us all into heaven despite our inability to live perfect sinless lives.  I believe living an active homosexual lifestyle is a sin, but it is no different than any other sin.  One sin makes us worthy of death.

I agree that it's hard to understand why God would create people who can't help but be sinful and not be able to join Him in heaven.  I'm still not entirely sure I understand why, but here's the best way I've come to understand it.  We were created to have a relationship with God.  If we were mechanical, perfect or unable to chose not to have a relationship with God, there wouldn't be much value to that relationship.  I mean, who cares if you don't have a choice?  Doing something because you have a gun held to your head doesn't have much meaning.  It is our efforts to grow our relationship with Christ that make it special and truly bring praise to him.  This explanation may have some significant theological holes in it (and I hope others point them out and fill them in), but it is what I've become the most comfortable with.

 

I hope to continue this conversation.

Andrew
 

So what you are saying is that homosexuals can go to heaven, as long as they form a relationship with Christ and all the other things as well?

But what if our opinion on this topic is wrong?  What if all active homosexuals are automatically going to hell, like what Catholics believe?  It just seems that there are many different takes on the issue from the different denominations of Christianity and with going to hell or not hangs in the balance, you can't deny the fact that it is a little frightening, to say the least...

I believe homosexuals need to repent of their sin and strive to become more like Christ just like anyone else and I strongly believe that they, like any sinner are quite able to join our Lord in heaven.

I do understand your follow up question.  It's possible I am wrong and there certainly isn't a unified Christian front on this issue.  Many don't even believe an active homosexual lifestyle is sinful.  That's why I keep hoping someone with more theological training than me joins the conversation.  I'll try to do more research tonight if others don't pitch in today.

I'm not sure that I'm really adding anything that hasn't already been stated, but here are some thoughts:

 

Of course homosexuals can go to heaven.  If any of us can, surely homosexuals can as well.  There is no sin that exists that was not redeemed by Christ's action on the cross.

 

Rather, it would seem that your question is more - "Is homosexuality a sin?"

 

It's rather hard to ignore what the Bible seems to suggest on this question - both in Leviticus, but also in Romans and 1 Corinthians - that it is, in fact, sinful.  However, the Bible also takes a strong view on any sex outside of marriage, regardless of whether it's homosexual or heterosexual, that this is also, in fact, sinful.

 
I think to claim that homosexuality is different because people don't choose whether they are homosexual or not brings to light much of our societal views, more than an accurate understanding of what the Bible says.  Most heterosexuals don't choose to be attracted to the opposite sex, and yet they have to deal with lust and sexual temptation just as much, and are even encouraged to engage in it by television and music.  Homosexuals are not exclusive in being born with a desire to do something that the Bible says we shouldn't.  To claim otherwise I think takes a very biased view of the Bible.  The Ten Commandments take much greater issue with lying than with homosexuality (which is not even mentioned), and all of us lie.  Jesus himself, who never mentions homosexuality, has greater issue with people who show anger toward on another an judge each other.

 
The point I'm trying to make here is that the singling out of homosexuals as a sinful group apart from the rest is more of a societal one than a Biblical or Christian one.  Our society embraces heterosexual sex (specifically casual sex outside of marriage) as the norm, and anything else, especially homosexuality, as deviant.  This same society that says you are a freak if you are a homosexual, also says you are a freak if you graduate college as virgin.  Think about that.  Even that which the Bible holds up as righteous is treated with disdain in our culture. 

 

The struggles that we are having as a country accepting homosexuals is not paralleled in the Bible to the same degree.  "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."  No where does it follow that up with, "and homosexuals have fallen even further behind than that!  The persecution that homosexuals undergo within our society is something that actually seems incredibly contrary to Biblical and Christian ideals, and especially those of Jesus.

 

That is not to say that actively engaging in a homosexual lifestyle completely okay, but it should be given the same regard as one who actively engages in a sexual lifestyle outside of marriage.  The moment that we start according homosexuality more attention and using it as a means of persecution or special distinction within the church, that is when we get into trouble.

 

I would say that regardless of where you stand on the issue, you would be hard pressed to claim that the issue of homosexuality is one that justifies more of our energy than loving God and loving our neighbors.  It is something that should not be completely disregarded, but rather given its proper proportion of our attention.

 

And as a last bit of overt personal opinion (if I haven't given enough of that already) if ever one was to claim that the homosexuality issue we are going through was not primarily a political and cultural one, I would counter that divorce is a far greater threat to the "sanctity of marriage" on both a Biblical and sociological scale than homosexuality is, and yet we hardly acknowledge that.  I'm not saying we should start persecuting divorcee's, I just think we need some perspective before we start doing things "in the name of God" that He didn't really call us to do, all the while neglecting the things that we are called to.
 

Okay, send me angry responses...NOW!

 

- Tyler 

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Hey Jesus, you're so fine. You're so fine you blow my mind.

Homosexuals do have a choice. They can choose to act on theor feelings or not. Yes Christ hates the sin but loves the sinner. They do need to repent, but the thing is, is that after they repent they go right back to what they were doing. Now, we do the same thing but w/ other sins and Christ says that to God every sin is equally bad. I believe they can go to heaven, but as all of you are well aware of, the Bible makes it very clear that if they do not repent of their ways then they will not go to Heaven. In 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 it talks about fleeing from sexual immorality.

 I got this verse from http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2335 so that I didn;t have to type all of it. They have further study if you want their translation.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is plain to them; because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling a mortal human being and birds and four-footed animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:18-32

 Then 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit thw kingdon of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulteres mor male prostitutes nor homaosexual offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkardsnor slanderers nor swindlers will inheret the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

God bless

 

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Trust inthe Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.

Proverbs 3: 5-6

But here's a challenging question; Do you believe that people can change their sexuality if they really want to(through camps or programs) or do you think that your sexuality is stuck with you one way or another?

I don't know if people can change their sexuality, but I don't think that's the question that really matters in regard to spending eternity in heaven.

The question as I see it is whether we strive to become more like Christ by not acting upon our sinful desires.  We're all sinful and we always will be regardless of the specific ways we are sinful.  Homosexuals can choose to live chaste lives.  This honors God more than heterosexuals who don't honor marriage as God intended it.

Hey all, I haven't responded till now because you have all done such a good job of answering questions, but I thought I would add my thoughts as I was reading something somewhere else that made me think of this discussion.  It gets more to the issue of how do we as Christians treat homosexuals, but I thought this quote (taken from, of all things, a review of 'I now pronounce you Church & Larry' on planetwisdom.com) got a lot of things right:

'We may say that God loves everyone, but some of us still use purposefully hurtful words to describe homosexuals and wrongly excuse it because we believe homosexual acts are sinful.The thing is that God really does love everyone, and He really does command us to follow His lead. First John 4:8 says, “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” Two chapters earlier, he also says, “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.” John even goes so far as to say that if we do not actually love those around us then we don’t truly love Him. Yes, practicing homosexual acts is sin. But if God didn’t love sinners, you and I would also be out of the picture, along with all of mankind.'

So a couple thoughts and reflections: - homosexuality is clearly a sin and something that puts a seperation between you and God

- at the same time in a very real way it is no different or worse than other sexual sins (such as premarital sex, adultry, etc.

- In terms of salvation (going to heaven), homosexuality should be treated exactly the same as other sins (so the response to the first question could be . . . do any sinners go to heaven?  If so how  - that is how the homosexual would get to heaven as well. 

- remember, 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God'  We are all in the same lifeboat with homosexuals and everybody else so many of us like to look down on.  We are no better than them, no matter what we think - the bottom line is we all need Jesus!

- I believe that choice is a difficult thing to really discuss when looking at this (or any) sin.  While I think there is very little credible evidence to suggest that homosexuality is genetically predetermined, I think very few people would 'choose' to be gay.  But I do think that the Christian that feels that they are homosexual does indeed have a choice.  The same choice each of us has - the choice to indulge in sinful acts that we know will seperate us from God or to seek to serve God and live according to His will for our lives.  We know that all of us make the wrong 'choice' more often than we would like to admit.

- as far as changing 'orientation', this is another tough question.  The most convincing material I have seen about how/why people identify themselves as homosexuals deals primarily with paternal relationship issues and issues of abuse or emotional neglect.  This is opposed to genetic predisposition.  So in light of that I would think that if one were to address the issues at the heart of the situation, some of the resulting outcomes (i.e. homosexuality) might be mitigated.  Above all, the God I believe in is Lord and Creator of all and nothing is impossible for Him, so like all things we encounter in this life, I believe God can work in this situation.

- above all I think we need to remember that we are called to be like Christ, and Christ always led with love - in fact the only people that he ever has harsh words for are the religious folks that were so busy judging others that they couldn't help the needy or work on their own problems.  At the same time, he managed to literally be love to all those he met while never ever condoning those parts of their lives that were sinful.  Seems to be there are some lessons to be learned here.

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'Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind'